"Scandal's" gladiators get ready to leave the field

BURBANK, Calif. — When Olivia Pope arrived in prime time in April 2012 — talking fast, wearing stilettos and a Burberry trench coat, savoring red wine — she was a revelation. Appearing in Shonda Rhimes' "Scandal," Pope was the first African-American female lead in a network drama in almost 40 years. ("Get Christie Love!" starring Teresa Graves as an undercover cop, debuted in 1974.)

Pope, played by Kerry Washington, was a Washington fixer and the long-term lover of the married president of the United States, Fitzgerald Grant III (Tony Goldwyn). Her glamour, ambition, ruthlessness and unshakable loyalty to both the Republic and her team of lawyers, hackers and assassins — her "gladiators" — at Olivia Pope and Associates made her one of the most memorable antiheroes, let alone one of the more complex black characters, on television.

For Rhimes, coming off the success of the pulpy medical drama "Grey's Anatomy," "Scandal" was a risky proposition. (ABC originally ordered only seven episodes.) But its mix of dark comedy, over-the-top melodrama, hot-button social issues — and passionate sex scenes — transfixed audiences. "Scandal" became a ratings hit, appointment viewing and a hashtag-spawning social media sensation (#ItsHandled).

Ultimately, its most lasting legacy is likely to be Olivia Pope herself. Both fully in command and deeply flawed, she was often driven by a higher purpose ("a white hat" in the show's parlance) while resisting being controlled by any male, or in this season, female presidential authority in the form of Mellie Grant (Bellamy Young).

With the show's finale on Thursday nearing, Rhimes, Washington, Goldwyn and Young gathered at the ABC building here to chat about the show's momentous run, craziest storytelling twists and nuanced handling of racial issues. These are excerpts from that conversation.

Q: Can we go back to the show's beginning? I always imagined that you wanted to do a show with a black female lead, but that it was almost historically impossible. Did you have a strategy to create a viewership that would be able to "see" Olivia Pope?

R: I don't believe in things being impossible, so it never occurred to me that it would be impossible. "Grey's Anatomy" was my first television show, and it turned out to be an enormous, giant, crazy hit right out of the gate, which afforded me a lot of power. It took me a while to figure out what I wanted to do with that power, but that power was a very effective tool. And when I met Judy Smith [a well-known Washington crisis manager] and knew that I wanted to write the show, it never occurred to me that there would be a problem making a show with an African-American lead. I was more surprised at how surprised everyone was than anything else. I felt good storytelling is good storytelling.

Q: The lore of the show is that almost every black actress in Hollywood auditioned for the part.

R: I will say that I understood immediately what a big deal it was when we started casting, because every actress who was the right age, even who weren't, who was of color, wanted to audition. And I felt an obligation to allow them to. It was like there was a shoe and everybody got to try it on, because it was clear that that kind of role was not out there or available to them. That was heartbreaking to me.

Q: Did you all think about all of that history when you were taking your roles?

W: I understood the historical weight of it, but I wasn't going to be able to do anything about that in any other way than dedicating myself as an actor. We weren't going to get picked up by me organizing a march at ABC. We were going to get picked up because we did work that was undeniable and that was the best version of storytelling up against all the other dramas.

Y: I mean anyone of any color at any age was happy to audition for the role of the first lady. At that point, I had just been grateful enough as a woman in Hollywood to have such agency and be so complicated.

Q: Did you think about the moral ambiguity of playing President Fitzgerald Grant III, this complicated, Republican president who is really very left-leaning, in the age of Obama? He even kills a Supreme Court justice at one point.

G: Moral ambiguity is one of the great things about the show. As a storyteller, Shonda took huge swings right off the bat. Well before the murder, I remember there was an episode where you thought Fitz may or may not have had an affair with Amanda Tanner [a former White House intern] in the first season. And there was one scene where a recording [of the affair] appears. I went up to Mark Wilding, who is Shonda's head writer, and I said so you're going to kill Fitz off? I thought there's no way that this character could come back from this.

Q: Sometimes when people watched the show, those "OMG" moments drove how people responded on Twitter. Were there moments when you thought the show was going over the top in terms of plot?

G: When my son was murdered. When we did the table read about it I literally was so shocked that Shonda made that choice. It was so upsetting. It was such a bold, extreme choice but it was true to the story. We're in this super-high-stakes world, which is why the show worked so well being set in the White House and Washington, because everything is life and death.

R: I feel like we're just telling a story. We weren't writing OMG moments. That's something the audience could decide because we weren't trying purposely to create those moments, we are just following the characters on their journey. And sometimes those journeys were twisted or dark.

W: This idea of genres or context or act breaks, that stuff was not important to our writers. We were going to do our own thing our own way, and we were going to make it loud and bold and to hell with what everybody says TV is supposed to look like.

R: It's true. I remember being highly insulted at getting only seven episodes, but more challenged and feeling like we     have only seven episodes. We're going to tell the story that we really want to tell.

Q: Olivia Pope is a complicated female lead who's a black woman. Did you think there were any cultural risks involved in having a black female antihero?

R: I'm smiling because I wasn't thinking of her that way. For me, writing Olivia Pope as the lead meant she got to be the lead and the lead is everything. She's the love interest, she's mean, she's kind, she's flawed, she's brilliant at her job. She makes mistakes. Equality is getting to be as screwed up and as messed up as all of the other leads on television.

G: Audiences don't need likable characters, they need compelling characters.

Q: One of the things that is important about your work is that race is there but it isn't there. Many of the show's intimate relationships are interracial: adoption, friendships, workplace and romantic relationships.

R: Race is there. Race is very there. Once Papa Pope [played by Joe Morton] showed up, we say blackness of a different kind showed up. In a weird way, Olivia Pope was sort of the post-racial Obama world that everybody believed they were living in and Papa Pope is old school. He showed up and was like, don't you remember that everybody is inherently racist? He remembers and believed in a very different world and felt like his daughter has lost her mind.

Q: What's the legacy of these characters?

G: For me, the most interesting thing about playing the character is that the man who is the most powerful person in the world and occupies an iconic position and has an iconic look has feet of clay.

Y: Mellie has lived deeply and that makes me proud of her. Shonda and our writers opened up a whole rainbow of womanhood onscreen, and we got to be all of our colors.

R: I don't know. I'm still in the middle.

W: I can barely breathe right now. It has taken every tool in my acting toolbox to not weep through this entire interview. It's very raw.


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